Cinema SPL levels where do we (you) go from here? It's LOUD!

[Erik Guldager]

Im working with featurefilm in Sweden and here we have a huge problem with films (mainly american) that are mixed at such high levels that the replay level in the cinemas are lowered on the cinema processors from fader 7 to around fader 5. This obviuosly affects films that are mixed with a correct monitoring level @ 85dBC.

So now I need som ideas and suggestions from YOU.
Where are you going and more importantly what should the rest of us do in ths situation?

We don't want to go where you have gone, lowering the monitor level and increasing the mix level until it gets unbearable to listen to at fader 7.

I'm starting to feel very frustrated with this situation! Do we want the levels to be this high?
What have we then gained with the increase in hedroom compared to the old analogue system?

Ideas, thoughts and general comments are appreciated!

Erik Guldager
Europa Post Production, Sweden

Forget 7, mix on 5,5 have fun and no discussion with the Producer
about " the technical Standart".
Thats reality.

[Erik Guldager]

Well the reality really sucks! :evil:

I say again, what have we gained comparing to the sound systems of yesterday except for the extra channel or two?

And do we want to go to "commercial land" where everyone strives to be louder than everyone else?

I'm no fan of the idea of "My car is bigger than yours, I'm more important than you and you should just shut up!".

Soon the hearing impaired will have a case with the levels in cinemas and will place restrictions on all of us. Do we want that? Maybe we do?

I for one would like to see a solution somewhat based on the LEQm idea.

Anyone else?

[dr.sound]

Eric,
I was discussing this topic with a fellow Re-Recording Mixer two days ago. He took his 3 year old daughter to see the latest "G" rated Feature that just came out. He was very impressed with the mix, yet he had to put in ear plugs to comfortably listen to the film. It seems that we as a mixing community need to adopt a standard such as the Dolby LEQ for "G" rated family films. This is a huge market that we need to keep happy. If the general public is complaining about the levels with their children present, then they are likely not to go out and see a movie at it's initial release and instead wait until it comes out on Home Video/ DVD. The LEQ may not be the ideal way to mix under since it take an average, yet it's a major step in the right direction when it comes to making the Theater a fun place for our future audience, the one that keep us all employed!

I do, just for fun, measure my 100 min. ´filmmixes with the dolby LEQ..........it mackes no sense. evertytime nearly he same level, .............
I don´t want to give Dolby even more power without sense.
Dolby should sell their theater cinema prozessor without the volume control possibilty of digital prints ! Then the producer will ask for downing volume during the mix........;-)

[Erik Guldager]

That the reason the levels are turned down in the cinema is because of customer complaints. No cinemaowner in his right mind would contiue to show a film at the CORRECT level if the audience keeps complaining about the level, they'll just turn the fader DOWN.

And I still haven't recived an answer on the issue...
WHAT HAVE WE GAINED?!?!? :evil: :roll: :evil:

If we all end up mixing fims with the dynamic of a TV show, the job as a filmmixer/re-recording engineer will soon be extinct!

There's no need for fancy studios, since noone will bother to go to the cinema and watch it if they can get the same sound (better) and great picture at home, if it all sounds like ****E anyway.

Erik Guldager
Europa Post Production, Sweden

Still as frustrated as ever, but vacation is around the corner, so I'll go out sailing instead 8)

Erik,
you're not the only one that's frustrated because of high levels in today's films.
Here's the explanation I get from a Producer in Portugal, when I ask : "But, why do you want it so loud?"
"Well, you know, people in Portugal watch movies with subtitles, so they don't have problems understanding the dialogues, even if the playback level is 4,5. In order to compete with this situation, please raise the level of the dialogue, so it can be heard easily at low levels!"
I already did some mixes for that Producer that can't be played back at 7, as these would seriously damage both the sound system and audience's hearing.
Fortunately, there are others that do not count with soundtrack loudness as the most important factor of their film's success. As much as I get nervous while doing "SCREAMING" mixes, I use "normal" ones to relax and enjoy my job.
Branko

[Erik Guldager]

So, what we've had for so many years, to the envy of the rest of the audioworld, STANDARDS, are we going to throw it all away because of some incompetent, ignorant, STUPID people think that the movie "needs" to be loder?!?!? :evil:

Forcing the rest of the world to create soundtracs thet simply put are substandard, compromised mixes?

****E

Erik, what is really your problem ?
if you mix at 5,5 not at seven ( 5,5 is thing this is a good average ) you have more than enough headroom for loud parts !!!!!!!!!!
Why do you need more headroom ?
Maybe we should change the the standart and say, well, thats fact.
Easy for U,the producer. the cinema.
Ok . maybe the mixers of Starwars would like to have more headroom, but for me ,and more for my children, the x-plotions are loud enough, even when the fader in the cinema is 5,5 or even lower

[thierryd]

Erik, what is really your problem ?
if you mix at 5,5 not at seven ( 5,5 is thing this is a good average ) you have more than enough headroom for loud parts !!!!!!!!!!
Why do you need more headroom ?
Maybe we should change the the standart and say, well, thats fact.
Easy for U,the producer. the cinema.
Ok . maybe the mixers of Starwars would like to have more headroom, but for me ,and more for my children, the x-plotions are loud enough, even when the fader in the cinema is 5,5 or even lower

hm, I tend to disagree with you. It's true you can go awfully loud with digital and fader 7, especially when using insane limiting such as on todays CDs (also if you mix at these sort of levels, you will never get the SR version near the digital, even when using the Dolby limiter)
But that would not be my goal. I'm with Erik on this and would very much like everybody to mix at 7, but mix with a healthy attitude, using the last few dBs only a couple of times in a mix.

But as others already pointed out, reality is that we are asked for loud levels or dropping the Dolby fader. I always try to convince producers/directors to not push it to far and my aim is to mix at least at 82dBC. Dialog is the center of all things and the rest of the mix is built around it. Intelligibility is the key (unless a scene asks for something different)

Branko, I've heard the same argument over here about subtitles and the fact that this way, level changes have less impact. It's also true that some hollywood FX heavy mixes, sometimes suffer from intelligibility problems, even for native english speakers (correct me if I'm wrong). I'll add an example: I went to see "Ronin" for the first time, when I was in New York. I like this film very much and it has some of the best car scenes in history. But at the time I had difficulties with the intelligibility of some scenes (of course in NY there were no subtitles :-). I wondered if it was the theater (off balance center channel) or the mix. Later I saw the DVD and had the same problem with some scenes (especially with Jean Reno who is of course not native english). Now the reason could be the english language not being my mother tongue, but I don't think so :-)


Greetings,

Thierry
"Go for 7 ! :-)"

[subwoof]

The projectionists set the CPU at 5.5 because the TRAILERS are so annoying sounding. And I don't just mean loudness. They are mixed like an AM radio spot, with tons and tons of limiting and compression, eveything being smashed to the point of no dynamics. Even if the LEQ does not exceed 85, trailers still sound too loud compared to a film that is well mixed with proper dynamics.

Because all national trailers are cut together one after another, and distributed as one piece of film, it is now impossible to mix a trailer any lower than all of the other trailers, so we are now stuck in this mode. Too bad. No one is going to mix a trailer any other way, because it will sound too low when cut in with other trailers. Therefore, films are sometimes being mixed as loud as trailers, so they sound loud enough when played back at 5.5!! It's a catch-22, and I hate it.

[defmxr]

Why are amplifier specs way above and beyond the capability of our hearing 20-20K or more? Because of many obvious reasons, headroom, lower distortion, more accurate reproduction of the orginal INTENT of the soundtrack. And there it is. The original intent. There have been films mixed in 8trk SDDS so the director (not producer, in film) could get the loudness he wanted..mixers added speakers to get volume. His intent was loud loud loud. I am currently working on a film with cannon, guns, et all..and its no where NEAR maximum level of loudness. It's hefty when it needs to be, and very very quiet when it needs to be. Obviously, digital medium have given us this advantage to reproduce the INTENT of the track. If left to the mixers, tracks would not be too loud (most of the time!) but its not our film, and we are often required to perform a service as professionals that may not be to our taste. So be it. Thats the job. We can offer them the color blue, but if they want red, we give them red, or somebody else will. Now also, the better the reproduction system on the stage, the less assaultive the sound will be, and hence "loudness" can be controlled. Some mixers mix with sound measuring devices next to them, so as their ears fatigue, they dont get "fooled".
So now, more often than not, what happens is that if a film is mixed at the correct levels, its WAY to low in the theaters, because the projectionist/popcorn kid turned it down and LEFT it down from the previous film, or trailer. So clients ask for louder because they KNOW it'll be turned down.Thats a catch 22. And then, theres the bunch that only care how it will sound at the Academy screenings or the premier, and they dont worry about the mass theaters.

[subwoof]

I appreciate the comments of defmixr. A well mixed film does not assault the ears, at any level. Years ago, when films began mixing in digital sound, it was a "new toy". Suddenly, you could make the film as loud and dynamic as you wanted, without the limitations of an optical track. In my opinion, too many directors at that point pushed the mixer to make their films louder and louder, so their film would "really get the audience". What was worse, film trailers all got louder too. Once the first trailer was loud, then all subsequent trailers had to be loud in order to stay at the same level when they were all played back together. No one wanted to have a trailer that sounded "low".

As a result, movie patrons complained, and they sound in the theaters was turned down, and just stayed that way. Then, directors went to see their movies in those theaters, and said "it sounds low. so the next time we will mix louder". And so it went.... Now that we have had a revolt in the mixing community, and the LEQ meter keeps trailers from being too loud, perhaps film mixers can mix at levels that are appropriate for the film and our ears. 85dB gives us a great deal of headroom in a mix, but it does not mean we can or should mix at the "threshold of pain", or the theater will simply turn it down. After all, no matter how loud the director wants the sound, when all is said and done, the projectionist has the final say.

[Tom P]

BTW, isn't there a Dolby Consultant while mixing? Why doesn' t he complain ?

Tom

[subwoof]

Tom P,

Yes there is a Dolby Consultant, but his job is technical only, not content. He simply captures the 5.1 mix onto his M.O. drive, while encoding it into a single digital bit stream through Dolby's AC-3 process. Sometimes he will say the mix needs to come down a bit for the Lt-Rt track which has to fit optical specs, but 99.9 per cent of the time, the optical track is never played in a theater, unless the digital track fails.

If the recorders on the dub stage are set at -20, you have up to 20 decibles of headroom above 85 db, which is 105 dB, enough to melt your ears. (Believe it or not, mixes done on mag with Doby SR have even more headroom than digital, but the digital delivery system cannot handle that now)

[John Iles]

Really pleased to see this debate amongst active production mixers and my personal views agree with Eric's.

I do find it difficult to accept the argument of dropping the monitor level, in my experience this only leads to higher levels on the film which in turn results in lower level settings in the cinema. Additionally, this also results in compromised quality on the analogue track which contrary to earlier messages is still used in a large number of cinemas and often for TV.

Leq(m) has made an enormous difference in commercials and has resulted in more interesting dynamic mixes. My only problem is that all commercials no matter what the content end up aiming at the same level!

While the current Leq(m) would not be suitable for feature work without additional work (smaller time intervals). I do feel that a limitition is required in order to keep a standard and to stop governments imposing restrictions. Commercially this would be very difficult for Dolby but I would also question who else could do it if Dolby doesn't?

[mik9dt]

Hi,
this is my first post after lurking here for a while. I am a freelance UK Sound Mixer with many years at the BBC under my belt.

I can recomend looking at the website www.digido.com
here you will find many useful articles related to levels etc.

Bob Katz has written a really great book called "Mastering Audio". It looks into this subject in detail and explains why many of our modern problems exist.... and some approaches to solving them.

I am not connected to Digido, just really excited by the site and book.

First of all, I'm glad to see John Iles posting here, sharing his concern about the future of sound for cinema.
Earlier in this topic, there was a guest saying
I don´t want to give Dolby even more power without sense.
This is wrong. Unfortunately, there's no one else to protect us! Also, we already see the results of limiting trailer levels to 82, which is a joint effort from Dolby labs and others. Dolby established methods and has built tools for controlling the level of the soundtrack loudness, so it would be a logical step for them to extend these regulations to feature films.
My doubt, however, is whether 737 is the right tool for the job, but that's another question...
Branko

[Erik Guldager]

It's great to see that the discussion continues, albeit slowly. Too bad only a few actually visits and uses these forums (are there any other like CAS to reach a wider audio post audience?)

Well... I made the first post almost a year ago, and the situation isn't improving, it's getting worse. And from what I can gather noone is trying to do anyhing about it!

Sheez, maybe I should just try to stay out of the mix studio and stay in the editing suite and just pretend we only produce stuff for ourselves... :?

Thanks John for chiming in on this, and I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that you (Dolby) will try to do something about it. Otherwise there will be no need for our big nice mixstudio, we could all just mix on closefield monitoring and just don't giva a rats *** what it'll sound like in a movie theatre.

Erik Guldager
Tech mngr, editor, mixer
Europa Post Production, Sweden

[Tom P]

Being at AES Berlin, talking to about a dozen mixers. They ALL argued the same: the Cinema fader is down anyway, and the client wants it.
Sh..I'ts so frustrating. I'ts so damned frustrating.

Tom

[Lars L]

John, as you once said; the Swedes are like the London buses, none appears and then they all comes at the same time...

Erik, this discussion has been going on for ages, it seems. And true, noting happens. As I recall, it all started with Godzilla or was it Twister? Anyway, it is truly frustrating.
John, in my opinion, you and Dolby are the only one who can make a differens. And the problem is first of all in US. That's where you have to start. We in Europe have to compete with the American films which in general are louder. I experience more and more often producers and directors demanding us to mix at a lower monitor level, and the reason is that in the cinemas generally the level is set at maximum 5, or sometimes even lower. If we insist on mixing at 7, well we all know what happens. Still, we refuse to mix with hearing protection!
So what to do? Well I see only one way out of this, and that's some sort of LEQ-standard. And who has the muscles to make this happen if not Dolby, and the audience of course ...

[ele]

Let's see that from a different axe. Why not MUSIC.

I'm no mixer or producer yet, I 'm just a student of audio technics and since I started being interested I've heard very often around me things like : the aundience asks for it, -we must only answer to what they want, -c'est la mode-... [i] etc etc etc... and then I ask myself:
WHO IS THE AUDIENCE???? am I or have I ever been a part of it?
because I have not asked for somebody to make me deaf!!! not even when I go to a concert, or when I go outside for a walk, not even when I buy a CD. And no one I know by now has asked for that!
Have you (as part of the audience) asked for it? For naked lolitas fake singers invading it all? for formated rock groups whom will not get down of the red in the vu? SATURATION! it's all about SATURATION if you see what I mean...

But, even working on sound I thing with all respect that we still belong to the audience.

And now, our "sweet sweet place to go" became a loudnessmonster too! :shock:

The answer I can humbly propose you is that nowadays it's all about SENSATIONS. One say "people" want to feel the speed, the power, the impact... so, then, the sound is more real than the reality! And let's be honest! nobody is gonna eat that that little door makes it all shiver when it closes, for example...
And again: WHO ASKED FOR IT?
The audience is a consumer of what the ones with the power want them to consume. Fashion is not maden by the "everyday people" of the audience. So guess: who has the power?
And then If I'm wrong why is Britney Sperars so famous? 'cause the sound behind is really well done? cause somebody can pay her a group of sound engineers that HAVE TO EARN SOMETHING TO EAT even if they are not happy doing so? i'm affraid that sound is not the first thing. There's THE image they sell.

When you work with cinema sound there are some tools that we use very often to cheat the audience called OUR OWN EXPERIENCE abour the way things are, what we know, what we've learned. All senses work together and they'll always search for "coherence". Ex: If sb says! hey, look at that bird! you're not gonna look at the floor... so well, I agree with that is sure that if we don't do what "they" want somebody else is going to do that, even if at the end of the day he's kind of deaf.

And yes, I know is not the end of the world. There are some good things that remain non too commercially made but then there is a new question:

WHERE IS OUR PASSION FOR SOUND GOING TO GO?

If it's all about sensations let's take off the sceen, turn off the loudspeakers and jump into a rollercoaster where we'll hear all screamy sounds "we" want and get all the sensations "we" are asking for !

I don't know, and maybe I'm wrong by saying all this. However, I think that it would be really sad if we all had to follow and extend the comercial "product" side of cinema for living and privilege sensations or impact over quality and coherent sound. Maybe that we don't
need to do so.
ele.